Uiltje Clayton Hops: Should I Just Keep Chasing Penguins

JohnHi there. I'm John Weich, creative director at Uiltje Company, and today I'm sitting down with head brewer Mattia Mantovani to talk about our latest beer from our small-batch IPA series: Should I Just Keep Chasing Penguins? I asked Mattia to speak for a few reasons. First, he's been raving about Chasing Penguins for a few weeks now. It features New Zealand Rhapsody hops, and it’s a 100% collaboration with Kiwi producer Clayton Hops. Second, it’s actually been a while since I’ve sat down with Mattia, and since then he’s been to New Zealand and back, and I kind of wanted to hear his thoughts on the entire New Zealand hop industry and how it compares to the US industry. So let’s just dive in and see where the conversation takes us. Enjoy.

Mattia: I’m Mattia Mantovani, head brewer at Uiltje , which opened in 2020. 

John, we've been talking about New Zealand hops for about a year now because you went there last year. 

Mattia Yeah 2525.

John: So , yeah, okay. We’d had a chance to talk about it, but now we have an opportunity because we’re releasing a new beer. It’s called *Should I Just Keep Chasing Penguins?* And of course, it’s based on a parody of Adele’s song “West Coast,” a collaboration with Clayton Hops. We use only Clayton Hops in it. So who is Clayton Hops? 

Mattia: In a way, it's a label I didn't know very well. And they're not the biggest—I'd say maybe in the top two, definitely in the top three. In terms of volume, they might not be the most famous, so they're big, but not that famous yet.

John, that's actually a good thing for you, right? You like to discover things that other people don't know.

Mattia Yeah , yeah. 

John: So we have a new beer coming out soon, and I think this is a great opportunity to not only talk about the beer itself, but maybe even delve a little deeper into the New Zealand hop scene. What's the story behind the beer?

Mattia Okay . So basically, as you mentioned, I was in New Zealand for the March 25th hop selection. And I was there with James, our package manager. So we went there, as I said, to select hops, visiting growers we already work with, like Freestyle Hops. And since we were there, it just made sense to check out the other companies and see how they operate. We ended up visiting Clayton, and during our tour of the production facility, we realized that their processing plant was brand new. We were quite amazed because brand-new processing equipment isn’t the norm for the other New Zealand companies we visited.

John , I think you're being pretty political right now.

Mattia Yeah . Yeah, I know, because there’s something everyone knows but doesn’t talk about in the beer industry, but I’ll share it anyway. Most of the old equipment from the US ends up in New Zealand. So, a lot of the processing facilities there use old US equipment. That means that if it was old in the US, it’s even older in New Zealand right now. So it was just nice to find a company that actually invests a lot in machinery, because new equipment gives you more control over more factors.

John: Yeah , because that's what you, as a brewer, are looking for, right? Control, consistency, and professionalism. Okay, so you met these guys. They must have given you something you liked to get you excited.

Mattia, I was already excited about the new equipment, but then we took a tour and I was really impressed by the small-batch brewing system they have. And they had a brewer who was really knowledgeable. They were using a lot of different hops. And I know, everyone goes all out during harvest, but it was just nice to see the setup, how clean everything was. I’m OCD, and their brewer was kind of as OCD as me. I feel like I’m trying to sell everyone on Clayton Hops, which I’m not. Their hops are just part of the conversation. 

John, I get it. Spoiler alert: Mattia isn't trying to sell you Clayton Hops.

Mattia So , first of all, everything there is brand-new, and then we spent a couple of hours driving around and walking through their fields. We were pretty late for the harvest, but there was one hop that really stood out to us. It was a private variety called CIP 014. They gave us a sample, and both James and I were really amazed by how strong the peach flavor was.

John, you said it was like drinking peach juice straight from your hand?

Mattia Yeah , that's right. Exactly—it was just insane. Especially because in New Zealand, all the varieties have a certain "dank" quality, a hint of white grapes. Of course, that varies depending on whether the hops are harvested early or late. The early harvests have less of that "dank" quality and less of that white grape note. And even though it was late in the season, this hop was more like the early harvest stuff. It was really, really juicy, really peachy, really melony. It reminded me of a really good batch of El Dorado from the US, which has that peachy, lemony aroma. We asked them for a few kilograms. Remember, we didn’t have a relationship with them at the time. To them, we were just another potential customer. So we left it at that. But four or five months later, we received a sample of the hops we loved. Naturally, we wanted to showcase the hops and the brand. At the time, it was still known by its experimental name, CIP 014; it hadn’t yet been named NZ Rhapsody. That’s always the case with experimental varieties; they have to go through years of procedures. And then the marketing teams get involved and give it a name. We thought this would make a great collaboration. It’s a nice story—though not as nice as the hop itself. And now we’re brewing it. By the way, they only named it NZ Rhapsody when we were in the process of creating the recipe.  

John, how long has it had a name? Like a couple of months. Right. Officially.

Mattia February , yeah.

John, moving on to Chasing Penguins. There’s a lot going on with it. It’s not just a simple single-hop beer. You’ve really experimented with it. The reason we’re even having this conversation is because of your enthusiasm for it. It’s been crafted to suit your personal IPA preferences.

Mattia Basically , it's a West Coast IPA, and West Coast IPAs are my favorite style because I'm a hop lover—I need to highlight the hops, and a West Coast IPA is the perfect style for me to do just that. We didn’t want to make a single-hop IPA because, I don’t know, I feel like single-hop IPAs are nice but sometimes boring. So we decided to blend two hop varieties: New Zealand Rhapsody and Nelson Sauvin. We’ll be using Amplifire™ to add flavor and aroma for a 100% Clayton Hops beer.

John, once again, we’re not being paid to promote Clayton Hops here, but we’re doing a good job. 

Mattia The Amplifire™ is designed to bring out all the peachy and melon notes. We use pilsner malt to give the hops room to shine, but we’re also adding some rice flakes to make it even drier. West Coast IPAs are already dry, but this one is going to be even drier. I’d say it’s a juicy, dry, and easy-to-drink IPA.

John, I'm just curious. I think over the past 12 years I've tasted every single Uiltje that's been released. How dry is "dry"?

Mattia: We’ve produced some pretty dry beers over the years, so I’m not going to say it’s as dry as Fancy Pants, for example, but it’s close. Chasing Penguins is basically a blend of a brute IPA and a West Coast IPA. It’s quite similar to a Cold IPA, and Cold IPAs are really dry. We brewed last year’s Who Let the Dogs Out? with rice flakes as well to make it really dry and dank. 

John Who Let the Dogs Out? was our collaboration with Brew Dog. It was a really good beer and actually a very successful collaboration. 

Mattia: Yeah , it was. I’d say that about 60 or 70% of our entire brewing team would say that was their favorite beer over the past few years. 

John: We brewed it as a one-off collaboration, but it just kept going and going and going. So just to be clear, do you see Chasing Penguins as a possible successor to Who Let the Dogs Out? in terms of being a fan favorite?

Mattia: Yeah . I mean, it depends on the marketing. So it’s not really up to me, but as far as the recipe goes, it’s very good.

John Who Let the Dogs Out? was a Cold IPA; this is a West Coast IPA. Are these styles the same, but with subtle differences?

Mattia: There are probably 15 different styles that all follow the same trend, because everything is an IPA. But there are differences. For instance, a Cold IPA is supposed to be brewed with lager yeast, while a West Coast IPA uses ale yeast. That’s probably the main difference between *Who Let the Dogs Out?* and *Chasing Penguins*. But some brewers use pale ale instead of pilsner—it just depends on the brewery itself. It gives you options. We consider Chasing Penguins a West Coast IPA because we’re using only New Zealand hops, but if we’d blended it with a US hop, it would have been a Pacific Coast IPA. It’s just a bit of a mess. As I’ve said, I’m OCD, so I like to keep things simple and organized. So let’s call it a West Coast IPA with New Zealand hops.

John, tell me more about New Zealand, because, as I said, we haven’t talked about it yet, and now we have a good excuse to. You were there for a couple of weeks last year. What did you learn? Most people know at least a little bit about the West Coast in the US. They’re familiar with European varieties and things like that, but let’s put New Zealand in the spotlight for a moment. What are the pros, cons, and challenges of New Zealand hops?

Mattia: This conversation makes more sense if we discuss it in the context of U.S. hops as well. I have a lot of experience with U.S. hops—it’s part of my daily work, and I’ve also visited there a few times. You’ve been there too, so you know what I mean. The U.S. is a major hop producer, with huge fields—I mean, really, really huge fields. When you go there, it’s easy to select because you have all these different lots and you can smell the leaves; they can tailor the hops to your flavor profile. The only real challenge is choosing your producer carefully because you’re selecting from samples. It’s how the hops are processed that will determine the final quality of your product. So, long story short, the US pre-selects for you based on your profile, you select from leaf samples, and almost everything is available. 

John, for someone with OCD like you, this is great. It's all organized, and the process is clear. 

Mattia: It’s easy because you know you can trust the process. You don’t need to smell the blend because you’ve already smelled the leaves, and you trust that the producer will finish it off. You can arrive at the fields on time, enjoy the hop harvest, and they’ll produce it and ship it to you. In New Zealand, I’d say it’s more similar to Germany. They have a lot of different types of fields. The landscape is sometimes uneven because, of course, it’s not all flat like in the US. Different landscapes can lead to different flavors. Can I name names to make my point?

John: It’s our podcast, go ahead. 

Mattia Okay . Cool. So back to New Zealand. We were there doing hop selection at Freestyle Hops. For them, it’s kind of pointless to select from a cone leaf because you don’t know how it’s going to develop during processing. For them, it makes more sense to select from the final product, the pellets. This is feasible for them because they’re much smaller, of course, compared to the US. So basically, whatever they’re going to harvest is going to be pelletized within, like, a few weeks. Put simply, what you smell and feel is what you get. You’re literally feeling the hop you’re buying. It’s more comparable to dry hopping, where you smell it and can say, “Okay, this is a nice batch. This beer is going to be nice.” Selecting hops in New Zealand is the same, whereas in the US, that’s not the case at all. The cone you smell is going to be turned into pellets in months, not weeks. It’s just the system; we have to work with that. You select hops in September; they’re processed in December. Faster than that simply isn’t feasible in the US, which is why New Zealand is a great place for hop geeks like me. 

John, but does that mean you don’t always get exactly what you want from the US? 

Mattia: Yes and no. In the US, the processing procedure is the same. You have to choose a producer you can trust for this. You can’t worry that something will go wrong. It can happen—everyone makes mistakes, and you might get unlucky—but that’s not the norm. Another thing—and I don’t want to get too technical here—but in the US, hop selection often takes place at a long table in a room where the producer displays samples. They don’t tell you anything about the origin. You give them your preferred profiles, they give you samples, you pick from those samples, that’s it. In New Zealand, it’s a lot more fun selecting because it’s more open, less busy, and they can experiment. They are literally the geeky part of the hop industry; they tell you what you’re tasting, whether it’s early harvest, mid-harvest, or late harvest. For someone with OCD, this is just insane because then you can smell the different harvests. 

John: They're just very clear about what you're smelling.

Mattia Yeah , 100%. They actually love to share. And another thing—for example, I'm European. We're in Europe, and we're used to Nelson Sauvin late harvest. That earthy, white-grape flavor. 

John, why are we used to that? Just because it takes so long to get from New Zealand to Europe.

Mattia No , no, that’s just how Nelson Sauvin is supposed to be here in Europe. I’m not saying anything against Nelson Sauvin—it’s a gorgeous hop, I love it. But when I was there, I discovered what Nelson Sauvin early harvest is like. Nelson Sauvin early harvest is that tropical. It has a tropical flavor that we Europeans don’t usually get. When you taste Nelson Sauvin in New Zealand, it has a certain juiciness. To get that juiciness in Europe, you have to blend it with a US hop. Nowadays, you can do it only with a New Zealand variety because you can play with early and late harvests; you can have the tropical juiciness and still, if you want, add that white grape-like dankness… you know what I mean?

John: It's like, well, it makes me think of Chasing Penguins in the sense that we have a 100% West Coast IPA made with 100% New Zealand hops.

Mattia Who Let the Dogs Out was a 100% New Zealand blend. It consisted of Nectaron, Nelson Sauvin, and Superdelic.

John, let’s go back to the start of our discussion—and perhaps to the end of it as well. Just a final assessment of *Chasing Penguins* again. Expectations are high—at least my personal expectations are quite high—for all the reasons you mentioned. But what’s your final verdict on New Zealand hops and where they stand? Where do you think they’re headed, and what’s Uiltjerelationship with New Zealand hops now that you’ve been here and built strong connections?

Mattia, I’d say we should explore New Zealand hop varieties more. I know every brewery uses New Zealand hops, but they should spend more time understanding them. Because there’s a lot of room to experiment. You don’t necessarily need to use US varieties, and you don’t necessarily need to use, say, proprietary varieties. Now, this is a big topic as well—public versus proprietary—but sometimes public hop varieties can be just as good. Actually, we should wrap this up perfectly. If you’re a brewer listening to this, please try brewing a beer with Cascade from the US, early-harvest Cascade from New Zealand, and late-harvest Cascade from New Zealand. Then you’ll see exactly what I mean. It’s just a fun experiment with hops—same variety, different country. And don’t be crazy enough to use European Cascade in an IPA if you’re expecting the same flavor as US Cascade, because, of course, European hops are slightly less intense. I’m saying this even though one of my favorite hops is Elixir from France. So read between the lines, I would say. But yeah, yeah, just do this little experiment and let me know what you think.

John, it sounds like you're inviting them to contact you. Do you want to give them your email address? 

Mattia Mattila at … .

John,just send it to the usual email address and it'll find its way to Mattia. 

Mattia, please let me know what you think of the beer.

John, thanks for your time, man. 

Mattia, and thank you. Bye bye.